Rusin implores that Westerners take care to protect and promote our core values. Not only have they improved humanity by their theory and practice, but they serve as our best weapon to defend ourselves and help the liberals and democrats living under illiberal systems.
It is absurd, yet necessary, to note that reading or citing FrontPage does NOT make one a (fill in blank). Actually, diverse sources help in the liberal search to understand the issues. Far too many ideologues from both sides adopt an echo chamber approach that requires conformity and examines sources as more determinative than the substance offered. I think that such an approach helps explain why there is so much demonization and corresponding inability both to hear what others actually say or to acknowledge one's own errors.
Rusin says:
Warraq declares that if their system is to endure, Westerners must acknowledge that “the great ideas of the West — rationalism, self-criticism, the disinterested search for truth, the separation of church and state, the rule of law and equality under the law, freedom of thought and expression, human rights, and liberal democracy — are superior to any others devised by humankind.” Likewise, it is critical to compare Western ideals to those of the Islamists, which are antithetical to liberty and increasingly threaten it.Many Progressives these days fail to adequately see that the very Western system they oppose, through Israel and the USA, is the one that in reality affords them the opportunities and freedoms that are limited or nonexistent elsewhere. What do they offer as a replacement to the Western model? A dream? Imagine their situations if they were in Egypt, Iran, China, if they opposed the state or system similarly.
Daniel Greenfield put the matter into perspective in the context of his article discussing the crisis of Jewish Leftists, when he said:
When Peter Beinart praises the Muslim Brotherhood as non-violent, does he imagine that when Qaradawi praises Hitler for doing Allah’s work and calls for Jewish genocide that the Brotherhood cleric means every Jew but Beinart?I think this applies to these Progressives by analogy. When it's all said and done, they are also seen as the enemy by those who wish to impose their ideology over us all. Yet, they assert that to stand for Western values, under attack, is somehow to hate, when it is actually confronting a hatred and intolerance that no one should have to endure in a peaceful world that cares for human dignity.
There is nothing wrong with protecting and promoting our core liberal values, and I'd advise those who would argue there is that they had better sit down and have a long thought about their own 'liberal' credentials. I'm only addressing the leftist aspect of this because I am of the Left, but there it is.
ReplyDeleteHow are you addressing the leftist aspect?
DeleteDo you believe that one can validly support core values by giving aid and comfort to those that would destroy the values?
By the way, I have always been of the Left, yet more a liberal as things have developed, especially as I look at the behavior of the Left and see it the ways it emulates the Right.
Indeed, as you may know, when I offer criticism, often I get called (fill in the blank) by some that claim the mantle, but invariably enable the illiberals either directly or implicitly by adopting the labels and classifying the criticism as hate speech.
I am addressing it from my perspective, as one who is (well, *was*, as I refuse to participate at certain blogs like Daily Kos any longer) regularly smeared by others who participate at places which are allegedly of the Left.
DeleteAs for you, I believe you are who you say you are, I always have, and I can only speak for myself, so bringing up other things such as how you were treated by other people at other places is irrelevant to what I've said here, imo.
What do you want me to say? I can't control others, and I have friends with whom I disagree from time to time.
I appreciate the answer to the first question, but was equally interested in the second because it gets to the substance of the matter and the diary.
DeleteCan one support core values by acting in their name, when the effect of doing so aids those that would destroy the values?
I am also somewhat frustrated by your answer. We all speak for ourselves, but also to make larger points that go beyond just the personal. That said, I don't want you to say anything other than what you want to say, nor to control anything. If that is what you understood I said, then it is a mistake.
You mentioned you were approaching the leftist aspect from the Left, so I did, too. It was not so you or others would believe me, but a statement of fact and context. I am perhaps more apprehensive concerning the negative effect of behavior shown by Leftists and Progressives, and believe it is not limited only to one issue.
I mentioned my own experience because you have observed some of it and thus thought could better relate to the larger aspect of how widely this has spread. Neither side is loathe to demonize, yet I find it odd to and call one a hater for pointing out antisemitism and discrimination against Jews, often to confront the most extreme Leftists disinformation. Indeed, it is used as a sword to prevent discussion of abuses that threaten our core values.
I suspect that you concur that this is more commonplace in Progressive-Left circles than either of us would prefer. That is what I am trying to discuss, not the juvenile manner I was treated by some in their politically correct performance of kabuki.
I am glad you commented in any event.
Sorry, I didn't see the second question. Been a bit distracted lately, having just moved cross-country (yet again) and trying to set up a new life (yet again), so I'm not at my 100% most attentive when it comes to participation at blogs these days. Yet I still insist upon doing so. I guess that's because it's a nice distraction from more pressing matters at times. Heh.
ReplyDeleteAnyway. We can indeed only speak for ourselves, so I can not know what exactly *you* mean by "giving aid and comfort," but I say no. They can not. But again, it all depends upon how this is defined I guess.
Yes, this is certainly more common in 'progressive' circles than I would prefer. I have never claimed otherwise. Yet I'd also draw a distinction between such 'progressives' and classic liberals like myself and (I do not wish to speak for you, though I suspect you and I are not too dissimilar in the end) you. Note that I am not denying they are what they claim they are, nor am I calling them 'rightists'; rather, I am calling them what they are, imho - ignorant, socially inept fools.
More tomorrow afternoon, if necessary. I should hopefully be far away from a computer for at least 99% of the next 16 hours or so. :)
No need to apologize at all.
ReplyDeleteAid and comfort is anything that has the effect of helping, directly or indirectly, or reinforcing to perpetrators that their actions are justified.
Since it is more common in progressive circles, what should be done? How far does it penetrate? What is the line between a progressive and a classical liberal? Or is the latter, as some defined progressives say, a conservative? Is it fair that they say so?
I do not think them inept, but perhaps ignorant, and certainly foolish for not understanding there are many shades of gray in this matter.
Sunshine, scorn and ridicule may help, or it may not. I don't know. That's the path I choose to take at the moment, and if necessary I can adapt to other means if this proves not to work, or if a better, more effective way to deal with these types comes along.
DeleteTheir numbers aren't as great as the noise they make (especially at Left blogs) would seem to indicate, I'd say, but this also doesn't, by any means, mean that they should be taken lightly or left to run amuck as they please. Which is why I know I must fight them just as hard, if not harder, than I do any other opponent.
At places like Daily Kos, for instance, the line is pretty obvious. Off the top of my head I can list about fifteen to twenty people there, virtually none of whom have ever expressed or displayed any interest whatsoever in electoral politics, and to them it's all about, for instance, constantly whipping up the more gullible types on the left into a frenzy about the alleged Israeli Outrage du Jour, or whatever. Those who, for instance, never have a good thing to say about the US yet who also never seem to run out of excuses for the Assads and Ahmadinejads of the world. They are clearly on the other side of the line.
Daily Kos is pretty irrelevant I think. It is not reality. I was thinking more about those that engage in the real world and put forth the message that that Israel is evil, not to mention the USA, and do so in the name of human rights. I think they have taken over more of the progressive world than imagined.
DeleteI believe that sunshine works best of the three things mentioned, although name and shame is effective for those they have enabled. I asked because I think that better means are needed to change the dynamic, if it can be done, and to take back human rights to its intended purposes.
Well, places like Daily Kos can also act as the incubator for these types before they go out into the real world to do real damage. If they don't / aren't already. So there's definitely a reason to take them on there (and elsewhere on the internet), as well, although I'm done with that particular site after being run off simply for objecting to the rampant antisemitism and constant apologetics for dictators which goes on there.
DeleteEven 1% of the progressive world is too much for them to be in control of, imo, but again I'd have to say they're not very relevant in most places either. For example, back when I was in Portland, Oregon, the local BDSers decided to picket my regular grocery store (New Seasons on SE Hawthorne Avenue) for a couple hours every Saturday morning, and they were the very epitome of impotence, as they sat there being ignored by all but maybe one person every 45 minutes or so. And even that one random person every hour or so seemed more interested in them for the spectacle than for anything else.
I guess my point here is that when they can't even rile up people on Hawthorne Ave (which is almost as close to a real life version of the whackier corners of Daily Kos as you can get anywhere) in Southeast Portland, it shows that their influence is not quite outsized yet. And again, this is not to say we shouldn't fight them (we must!), but let's not ascribe to them all kinds of influence and power within the Left that they don't have (yet), either.